Curse

Unreal Havoc · Aug 10, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If energy is never a problem for good Monks, why are ER Infusers so lauded a build?

Because they can spam mindlessly without any regard to actually playing skillfully?

In general if you're Monk is running out of energy in PvE then either your team isn't killing stuff fast enough, or your other healer isn't pulling his weight.

Or even a combination of both.

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Are you saying a good Monk > good ER Infuse?

Burst Cancel · Aug 10, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Are you saying a good Monk > good ER Infuse?

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you just a moron? Havoc is saying that good monks shouldn't run out of energy unless somebody is screwing up, which is exactly correct. Whether it's better or worse than bullshit Ether Renewal builds that spam instant-recharge skills for no energy is besides the point.

Bottom line: WoH + Patient were the only healing skills you ever needed on the standard hybrid bars if you and your team weren't complete failures.

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

I realized I've been getting sidetracked ...

The original post was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Because you're still running HB as elite, which is still a pile of shit. Run a better elite, stop resorting to spamming heals. You only need 2 heals on a bar. If you need more, you're bad at PvE.

Monks aren't judged by how many heals he has on his bar. If that's how he's judged, then ER Infuse is obviously the best Monk build around because he only has one heal, and makes anyone with a primary Monk bad at PvE.

The ultimate judge is how well the Monk can keep his team alive, and in this I ask fenix to show reasons why HB < WoH.

Burst Cancel · Aug 10, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The argument is that if Monks never run out of energy, they will be much superior to ER Infuse. Just think: ER Infuse can cast Prot Spirit @ 12 Protection Prayers, Monks can cast @ 14. ER Infuse can cast Spirit Bond @ 12 Protection Prayers, Monks can cast @ 14. ER Infuse can cast Infuse Health for big healing, Monks have WoH for big healing. ER Infuse doesn't have Aegis, it doesn't have Shield of Absorption, it can't run Seed of Life, it doesn't have Heal Party. All this a Monk has access to. So why is ER Infuse such a lauded build?

The obvious reason is that the Monk cannot keep up with the energy expenditure an ER Elementalist can.

As for "someone is screwing up", then well, everyone screws up sometimes. What's your point?

"Monk cannot spend energy like an ER healer" is not equivalent to "Monks run out of energy". If you try to play a monk like an ER healer, you will run out of energy - but a monk isn't played like an ER healer. Monk spells cost energy and have non-zero recharges, unlike ER Infuse, which means you are going to have to pay attention to what, when, and on whom you are casting, instead of staring at the party window and mashing the free heal button. None of this has anything to do with running Sig of Rejuv on a WoH hybrid, which was your original problem.

"Everyone screws up sometimes" is an idiotic sentiment in a skill-based activity. The rate at which people screw up is what separates good players from bad players - the entire point of getting better at a game is to screw up less. Better players (who screw up infrequently) should not be running out of energy with WoH+Patient.

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Reread, I edited. You might want to edit what I wrote out too, since the post isn't there anymore.

Simath · Aug 10, 2009, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The ultimate judge is how well the Monk can keep his team alive, and in this I ask fenix to show reasons why HB < WoH.

HB can be stripped. WoH cannot.

HB is used to buff other skills, and if stripped, PBlocked, Diversioned, or rendered not accessible for whatever reason your bar is now functioning at half its ability. If WoH is rendered not accessible the rest of your bar isn't directly effected.

There are several other reasons such as skill choice and accompaniment for each instance, but if you aren't aware of the aforementioned points then you probably will have trouble accepting anything more.

The bottomline is HB is inferior to many skills out there. One of its primary partners in crime is Heal Party. If you need to run HP on your bar you're either horrible at Guild Wars, or are in Urgoz/Deep.

Jeydra · Aug 11, 2009, 01:07 AM // 01:07

HB can be covered. As a 1/4s spell it's hard to PBlock. WoH can be Diverted as well. If WoH is rendered not accessible for some reason it doesn't matter if the rest of your bar isn't directly affected. The upshot is you are a lot weaker, same as with HB. Actually with HB you are rather less affected by Diversion (say) since you'd have just put up HB, and HB lasts for, what, 50+ seconds?

What's wrong with Heal Party?

_Nihilist_ · Aug 11, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What's wrong with Heal Party?

It's too easy to misuse with it's energy cost and ability to spam-drain your energy pool.

laksa and curry · Aug 11, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Spamming HP without Gole covering. pre 6/8 update is asking for trouble.

Jeydra · Aug 11, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

It's too easy to misuse with it's energy cost and ability to spam-drain your energy pool.

So Prot Spirit is bad because it's easy to misuse and drain your energy pool as well? What about Spirit Bond? Who's asking you to spam it anyway?

laksa and curry · Aug 12, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So Prot Spirit is bad because it's easy to misuse and drain your energy pool as well? What about Spirit Bond? Who's asking you to spam it anyway?

You have a valid point there.

HP has a higher tendency to be spammed as compared to PS. Most HB healer have a "lazy habbit" of just pressing the HP key to push red bars up. Whereas PS requires more skill to apply, for example to anticipate a spike or to reduce damage taken when being targeted by a mob. And a heal spell usually follows right after PS is cast.

PS doesnt have the tendency to be spam cos it will never be an effective red bar pusher.

I have never seen anyone spam PS btw..

And Sprit bond is never a favourite on a general PVE skill bar. Unless you are tanking with 2 bonder heros flagged behind you. Or are using some kind of a farming build.

Burst Cancel · Aug 12, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

HP is bad because it requires its own emgt to be worth using. Couple that with the fact that you're already wasting a skill slot on a buff (HB), and you're giving up three slots for a skill that isn't even that effective.

The problem with HB is that it's bar decompression - it takes an extra skill slot for no real benefit. WoH and Patient Spirit are both low recharge, low cost heals, and WoH is both a larger and more efficient heal than anything under HB except a stacked Dwayna's Kiss.

Unreal Havoc · Aug 12, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So Prot Spirit is bad because it's easy to misuse and drain your energy pool as well? What about Spirit Bond? Who's asking you to spam it anyway?

Heal Party is a 15 energy spell and is used to push red bars. Under Glyph of Lesser Energy this still costs you 5 energy.

Protective Spirit is a 10 energy spell and is used to pre-prot melee and reduce damage being taken by party members taking too much damage. Under Glyph of Lesser Energy this costs you 0 energy.

Which do you think actually gets misused and drains your energy pool more here?

As for covering HB, as a Monk do you have unlimited energy just to devote to the upkeep of one skill? That's at least 10 energy just to cast HB and a cover enchantment, which is another slot on your bar wasted unless you're protecting yourself unneccessarily.

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The problem with HB is that it's bar decompression - it takes an extra skill slot for no real benefit. WoH and Patient Spirit are both low recharge, low cost heals, and WoH is both a larger and more efficient heal than anything under HB except a stacked Dwayna's Kiss.

Patient Spirit + HB heals more than WoH unless you are healing targets < 50% health, which you don't want to get to. Heal Party + HB heals more than WoH too, if you heal enough people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Heal Party is a 15 energy spell and is used to push red bars. Under Glyph of Lesser Energy this still costs you 5 energy.

Protective Spirit is a 10 energy spell and is used to pre-prot melee and reduce damage being taken by party members taking too much damage. Under Glyph of Lesser Energy this costs you 0 energy.

Which do you think actually gets misused and drains your energy pool more here?

As for covering HB, as a Monk do you have unlimited energy just to devote to the upkeep of one skill? That's at least 10 energy just to cast HB and a cover enchantment, which is another slot on your bar wasted unless you're protecting yourself unneccessarily.

Obviously the skill that gets misused and drains energy is the one that is being misused, wherupon you blame the Monk, not the skill.

And I dunno, didn't you just argue that Monks shouldn't need so much energy that they have to run Signet of Rejuvination, and that if you find yourself needing it your team must be doing badly!?

PS: Obvious cover enchantment to use is Vigorous Spirit, which does have uses other than be "wasted" on your bar. Also, you only need a cover enchantment against mobs with sufficient enchantment removal that they take out any pre-protted melee and still have enchantment removal to spare on you, and they remove HB more than once every 10s. Not very common, is it?

laksa and curry · Aug 12, 2009, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Patient Spirit + HB heals more than WoH unless you are healing targets < 50% health, which you don't want to get to. Heal Party + HB heals more than WoH too, if you heal enough people.

Obviously the skill that gets misused and drains energy is the one that is being misused, wherupon you blame the Monk, not the skill.

And I dunno, didn't you just argue that Monks shouldn't need so much energy that they have to run Signet of Rejuvination, and that if you find yourself needing it your team must be doing badly!?

PS: Obvious cover enchantment to use is Vigorous Spirit, which does have uses other than be "wasted" on your bar. Also, you only need a cover enchantment against mobs with sufficient enchantment removal that they take out any pre-protted melee and still have enchantment removal to spare on you, and they remove HB more than once every 10s. Not very common, is it?

Its good that you came forth with such a strong arguement. I totally agree with you that its the monk's fault not the skill bar's fault ( Provided you are not one of those who carries 6 heals + gole +HB bar monk).( This statement also addresses those who use WOH bars and use the skill to heal people with 4/5 full bars.)

I am happy to note that you are confident in your build choice. Which proves you are a good HB monk unlike the other 90% who only spams HP with or without Gole cover. Worst of all these are the people who insist you run HB with them and ping you their 6 heal spells HB leet build.

These are also the monks that like to stay out of range, over relying on their ONE SKILL HP to address all issues.

However, I feel that HB bars are too conditional for my liking, and they lack utility skills like hex and condition removal. The fact that your casting time is halved shows that over a period of time you can cast twice the amount of spells which also means you would probably run into E management problems twice as fast. Given that the only E management skill u have has a recharge of 30 sec. ( Example excludes the presence of a bipper.)

Unreal Havoc · Aug 12, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Patient Spirit + HB heals more than WoH unless you are healing targets < 50% health, which you don't want to get to. Heal Party + HB heals more than WoH too, if you heal enough people.

Patient Spirit has a delayed heal making it not so good for catching large damage spikes. You can argue using a Patient +Dwaynas combo but then you're using three skills just to get one large heal.

Quote:

Obviously the skill that gets misused and drains energy is the one that is being misused, wherupon you blame the Monk, not the skill.

You're missing the point. Heal Party over Protective Spirit is more likely to be used, whether over used or not and costs more energy even with Glyph of Lesser Energy. You don't use Protective Spirit for healing, you use it for protecting people who are the focus of large amounts of damage, so overuse is a rarity.

Quote:

And I dunno, didn't you just argue that Monks shouldn't need so much energy that they have to run Signet of Rejuvination, and that if you find yourself needing it your team must be doing badly!?

Yes I did. You shouldn't need so much energy to have to use Signet of Rejuvenation. So why waste it on HB and covering it when you can run Word of Healing and not have to even worry about maintaining and wasting energy covering enchantments.

Quote:

PS: Obvious cover enchantment to use is Vigorous Spirit, which does have uses other than be "wasted" on your bar. Also, you only need a cover enchantment against mobs with sufficient enchantment removal that they take out any pre-protted melee and still have enchantment removal to spare on you, and they remove HB more than once every 10s. Not very common, is it?

Again why waste energy with a cover. Just run Word of Healing, you'll use less energy and you can still heal well. If you and you're party are even half decent you don't need all these expensive party power heals.

You're still using an enchantment that could have been thrown on another party member on yourself with no real benefit. That is a waste of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

However, I feel that HB bars are too conditional for my liking, and they lack utility skills like hex and condition removal.

I agree that they are generally fairly conditional and generally require more specific use than general use. I wouldn't say they lack condition removal or hex removal though it just depends on what you run and how you run it.

Simath · Aug 12, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

HB can be covered.

So you're going to waste the energy to keep HB constantly covered? That's horrendously inefficient, and overall bad monking.

Quote:

WoH can be Diverted as well.

Learn how to use hex removal, or simply don't cast WoH when you have Diversion on you.

Quote:

If WoH is rendered not accessible for some reason it doesn't matter if the rest of your bar isn't directly affected.

Pull your foot out of your mouth.

Quote:

The upshot is you are a lot weaker, same as with HB.

Wrong. If you can't keep your party up with the rest of your bar while WoH is unusable, you should try playing another class. Once again, without HB your bar is at half its potential.

Quote:

What's wrong with Heal Party?

You don't really know much about Guild Wars do you?

Jeydra · Aug 12, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

@laksa and curry - I'll agree that 6 heals + Healer's Boon isn't a good build, but I think it's possible to make a HB build good, comparable or possibly even better than a WoH build. Condition removal is a problem but then again conditions largely aren't too dangerous in PvE (and you can get the other Monk / FF Necro or similar to remove it). Hex removal ... it can easily bring Cure Hex, which is standard, and Dwayna's Kiss suits hexes quite nicely.

The running out of energy part is a bit silly, because if casting faster makes you run out of energy faster then 40/40 sets are bad because they both make you cast faster and makes the recharge slower, and you run out of energy faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Patient Spirit has a delayed heal making it not so good for catching large damage spikes. You can argue using a Patient +Dwaynas combo but then you're using three skills just to get one large heal.

HB makes spells cast faster, so you can get heals to spikes faster too; if you're dealing with a large damage spike what happened to Prot Spirit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You're missing the point. Heal Party over Protective Spirit is more likely to be used, whether over used or not and costs more energy even with Glyph of Lesser Energy. You don't use Protective Spirit for healing, you use it for protecting people who are the focus of large amounts of damage, so overuse is a rarity.

Are you arguing that a Monk spamming Heal Party makes Heal Party bad? Why don't you say the Monk is bad instead? I can just as simply play a Monk and spam Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond and run myself out of energy, does that make both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond bad?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Again why waste energy with a cover. Just run Word of Healing, you'll use less energy and you can still heal well. If you and you're party are even half decent you don't need all these expensive party power heals.

You're still using an enchantment that could have been thrown on another party member on yourself with no real benefit. That is a waste of energy.

You only need to cover if the area has enough anti-enchantments - I challenge you to name some areas, and for every area you name I'll give you 3 where you don't need to cover.

If you're saying "party power heals" aren't necessary, answer this as well. Do you run Protective Was Kaolai on Rit healers because of the +10 armor ... or for the party heals?

Before you say any of the following, let me point out that:

1. Kaolai can be precast -> HB can be precast too, and so can Vigorous Spirit.
2. Kaolai is cheaper -> it also heals less.
3. Kaolai can't be spammed and so ostensibly can't run you out of energy -> with this logic pre-nerf Kaolai was weaker than post-nerf Kaolai, since with pre-nerf Kaolai you can cast more and run yourself out of energy faster.

@Simath - your post is so trollish I'm not going to answer, but I'll quote this line for hilarity purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

Learn how to use hex removal, or simply don't cast WoH when you have Diversion on you.

Lol

Unreal Havoc · Aug 12, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

HB makes spells cast faster, so you can get heals to spikes faster too; if you're dealing with a large damage spike what happened to Prot Spirit?

If you had ever even monked you would know I was talking about the delay from casting Patient Spirit to when it actually heals, not how long it takes to cast.

Quote:

Are you arguing that a Monk spamming Heal Party makes Heal Party bad? Why don't you say the Monk is bad instead? I can just as simply play a Monk and spam Prot Spirit + Spirit Bond and run myself out of energy, does that make both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond bad?

Are you purporsely trying to shy away from the point being made here? Heal Party costs more energy regardless of what energy management you use. Heal Party is generally used far more than Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond.

Quote:

You only need to cover if the area has enough anti-enchantments - I challenge you to name some areas, and for every area you name I'll give you 3 where you don't need to cover.

I'm not the one who said cover my enchantments, am I? I'm saying that instead of covering them and wasting energy use a different elite skill.

Quote:

If you're saying "party power heals" aren't necessary, answer this as well. Do you run Protective Was Kaolai on Rit healers because of the +10 armor ... or for the party heals?

Before you say any of the following, let me point out that:

1. Kaolai can be precast -> HB can be precast too, and so can Vigorous Spirit.
2. Kaolai is cheaper -> it also heals less.
3. Kaolai can't be spammed and so ostensibly can't run you out of energy -> with this logic pre-nerf Kaolai was weaker than post-nerf Kaolai, since with pre-nerf Kaolai you can cast more and run yourself out of energy faster

You call that a party power heal? After naimg several reasons why it isn't one? Namely recharge and healing for less. Also Protective Was Kaolai tends to be run more on Necromancer heroes with Soul Reaping, not players.

Party power heals are not neccessary (except in specific team builds where it's implemented in specific parts of a run). Just because they are used that does not make them essential to every area of the game. Good Monks are more than capable of keeping a party alive without them. History proves this, thusmaking them unneccessary.

Let me also say that this is a discussion about Monks not Ritualists, or Elementalists. Try and keep it that way.

Lastly it helps if you actually quote the person who you're replying to and not someone else, lol.